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Casino Guru daje Fresh-Casinu savršenu reputaciju i ocjenjuje T&C poštenim. Ne slažem se. Po mom mišljenju, stav 8.6 T&C-a ne samo da je nepravedan, već i vjerovatno krši ugovor o licenci davaoca licence.
8.6 Nećete zadržati ili otkazati prethodne transakcije i depozite na vaš račun. U suprotnom, obavezujete se da ćete vratiti ova sredstva i nadoknaditi Kompaniji za nepopunjena sredstva, uključujući troškove koje je Kompanija napravila prilikom prikupljanja vaših depozita.
Igrač uvek treba da ima pravo da traži svoj novac nazad ako kazino napravi grešku (npr. kršenje RG politike itd.). Kazino uvijek treba da ima kontrolnu vlast. U suprotnom, Casino Guru se može odmah zatvoriti. Fresh Casino mi je rekao da čak i ako je kazino napravio grešku i treća strana (ADR / Autoritet za licenciranje) se složi sa igračem oko nečega, ne mogu tražiti nazad svoj deponovani novac ni pod kojim okolnostima. Prema T&C-u, ako igrač dobije svoj novac nazad, mora ga vratiti kazinu uključujući naknade.
Molim za mišljenje Casino Gurua.
Casino Guru gives Fresh-Casino a perfect reputation and rates the T&C as fair. I disagree. In my opinion, paragraph 8.6 of the T&C is not only unfair, but also probably violates the license agreement of the licensor.
8.6 You will not withhold or cancel previous transactions and deposits to your account. Otherwise, you undertake to return these funds and compensate the Company for the unplaced funds, including expenses incurred by the Company when collecting your deposits.
A player should always have the right to claim their money back should the casino make a mistake (eg violating the RG policy etc.). A casino should always have a control authority. Otherwise, Casino Guru can close immediately. Fresh Casino told me that even if the casino made a mistake and a third party (ADR / Licensing Authority) agrees with the player on something, they cannot claim back their deposited money under any circumstances. According to T&C, if the player gets his money back, he has to pay it back to the casino including fees.
I ask kindly for the opinion of Casino Guru.
Zdravo,
sa moje tačke gledišta, ovo pravilo bi trebalo da brani kazino u slučaju da igrač, na primer, zatraži povrat novca. Jako ovisi o tome kako i kada se ovo pravilo primjenjuje.
osim toga, ovo pravilo se ne odnosi ni na jednu grešku koju je napravio kazino, kao što ste predložili. Stoga opet pitanje pravičnosti zavisi od toga kako kazino sprovodi ovo pravilo.
Ovo je novi kazino, tako da vjerujem da do sada nismo bili svjedoci da se ovo pravilo primjenjuje, stoga ne možemo reći da je zloupotrebljeno.
Dozvolite mi da kažem da je odgovor menadžera veoma nejasan i uopšten. Ona je samo potvrdila da se registracijom slažete sa svim Uvjetima i odredbama, ali je izbjegavala komentarisati samo pravilo.
Ako ikada naiđete na stvarni problem uzrokovan ovim terminom, možemo pomno ispitati konkretnu situaciju i donijeti konkretan zaključak.
Hello,
from my point of view, this rule should defend the casino in case the player requests a chargeback for instance. It strongly depends on how and when this rule is applied.
furthermore, this rule does not refer to any mistake made by the casino, as you suggested. Hence again the question of fairness depends on how the casino enforces this rule.
This is a fresh casino, so I believe that we've not witnessed this rule be applied so far, therefore we can't say it's been misused.
Allow me to say, the reply from the manager is very vague and general. She only confirmed that by registering you agree to all Terms and Conditions but she avoided commenting on the rule itself.
If you ever come across an actual problem caused by this term, we can examine the concrete situation closely and make a concrete conclusion.
Dobar dan
Hvala vam na poruci. Pokušao sam da što preciznije objasnim svoje viđenje i iskustvo, ali očigledno nisam uspio. Izvinjavam se zbog toga.
1. Vjerujem da T&C treba da bude transparentan i razumljiv. Takođe im se ne bi trebalo davati drugačije značenje u zavisnosti od pojedinačnog slučaja. Ovo se odnosi i na Codex of Casino Guru. Stoga, bez obzira na moj slučaj, uložio sam prigovor na paragraf 8.6 kao takav.
2. Naravno, igrač ne može, na primjer, uplatiti depozit svojom kreditnom karticom, zatim prokockati taj novac i onda podići depozit. Ovo je jasno i s pravom.
3. Fresh-Casino mi je nekoliko puta rekao i takođe potvrdio da ovaj stav kaže da igrači nemaju pravo da traže nazad već uplaćeni novac putem reklamacije. Čak ni ako je kazino napravio greške ili prekršio ugovor o licenci ili RG politiku.
4, Moj slučaj: Tražio sam od kazina da mi vrati depozite jer sam iz Švicarske. Dok je švicarskim građanima dozvoljeno da igraju u stranim kockarnicama u Švicarskoj, ilegalno je da strane kazina nude igre. (Znate priču, takođe znam da mi Casino Guru ne može pomoći u ovome, jer Casino Guru interveniše samo kada su u pitanju neisplaćeni dobici.) To nije problem. Ono što me muči je obrazloženje kazina. Ako kazino kaže da je moja odgovornost na kojim sajtovima registrujem i igram novac, onda bih mogao da živim s tim opravdanjem. Ali bio sam zadivljen razlogom zbog kojeg sam objavio u svojoj prvoj poruci. Igraču nije dozvoljeno da povrati sredstva iz bilo kojeg razloga i mora vratiti depozite kazinu ako su u svakom slučaju u pravu i dobiti vraćene depozite. Čak i ako je kazino napravio očigledne greške, na primjer? Takođe je upitno da li kazino treba da ima ovu klauzulu jer se igrač uvek može žaliti ADR-u ili autoritetu za licenciranje.
Ne može biti da uložim normalnu žalbu, a iz kazina mi kažu da nemam pravo tražiti bilo kakav novac nazad. Svaki igrač treba da ima pravo da ne bude u milosti kazina. Kazino plaši i laže igrače govoreći da prema 8.6 ne možete podnijeti žalbu i tražiti povrat novca. Kazino je to rekao i potvrdio nekoliko puta.
5. U svakom slučaju, podneću žalbu na stav 8.6 organu za izdavanje dozvola. Kada bi mi Casino Guru mogao dati svoje mišljenje o mom slučaju, to bi mi jako pomoglo. Koliko igrača je htjelo podnijeti žalbu, ali nije jer je Fresh Casino rekao da je prekršio 8.6. Čak i ako igrač dobije pravo, prema 8.6 mora vratiti novac.
Molim Casino Gurua da zaista pažljivo prouči moje snimke ekrana.
Srdačni pozdravi
Dario Jablanović
Good day
Thank you for your message. I tried to explain my view and experience as precisely as possible, but apparently I didn't succeed. I apologize for that.
1. I believe that T&C should be transparent and self-explanatory. They should also not be given a different meaning depending on the individual case. This also with regard to the Codex of Casino Guru. Therefore, regardless of my case, I have objected to paragraph 8.6 as such.
2. Of course, a player cannot, for example, make deposits with his credit card, then gamble away that money and then withdraw the deposit. This is clear and rightly so.
3. Fresh-Casino has told me several times and also confirmed that this paragraph states that players have no right to claim back already deposited money by means of a complaint. Not even if the casino made mistakes or violated the license agreement or RG policy.
4, My case: I asked the casino to refund my deposits because I'm from Switzerland. While Swiss citizens are allowed to play in foreign casinos in Switzerland, it is illegal for foreign casinos to offer games. (You know the story I also know that Casino Guru cannot help me with this, as Casino Guru only intervenes when it comes to unpaid winnings.) That's not the problem. What bothers me is the reasoning of the casino. If the casino says it's my responsibility which sites I register and play money on, then I could live with that justification. But I was amazed by the reason I published in my first message. The player is not allowed to reclaim funds for whatever reason and has to give the deposits back to the casino if they are right in any case and get deposits refunded. Even if the casino has made obvious mistakes, for example? It is also questionable whether the casino should have this clause as a player can always complain to the ADR or licensing authority.
It can't be that I file a normal complaint and the casino tells me that I have no right to ask for any money back whatsoever. Every player should have the right not to be at the mercy of the casino. The casino scares and lies to the players by saying that according to 8.6 you can't file a complaint and ask for money back. The casino has said and confirmed this several times.
5. In any case, I will file a complaint against paragraph 8.6 with the licensing authority. If Casino Guru could give me his opinion on my case it would very help me. How many players wanted to file a complaint but didn't because Fresh Casino said it violated 8.6. Even if a player gets right, according to 8.6 he must pay back the money.
I ask Casino Guru to really study my screenshots carefully.
Kind regards
Dario Jablanovic
Uložio sam žalbu kazinu i oni me upućuju na paragraf 8.6 u svom članku. U kontekstu moje žalbe , pročitao sam ili vidio sljedeće:
"Dario, ova klauzula pravila znači da se obavezujete da nećete odbijati prethodno uplaćene depozite, da nećete otkazati operacije za uplatu sredstava, da nećete protestovati na sredstva na koja ste se samostalno kladili. U suprotnom, obavezujete se da ćete nadoknaditi sve troškove naših strana u procesu prikupljanja za vraćanje vaših depozita"
" Imajte na umu da se postupak osporavanja deponovanih sredstava smatra kršenjem uslova i odredbi sajta. To je navedeno u paragrafu 8.6. Registracijom na web stranici potvrđujete da nećete zadržati ili otkazati prethodne transakcije i depozite na Vaš račun . U suprotnom, obavezujete se da ćete vratiti ova sredstva i kompenzirati Kompaniji za nepopunjena sredstva, uključujući troškove koje je Kompanija imala prilikom prikupljanja vaših depozita."
Moje pitanje Fresh-Casinu je bilo: " Nemam pravo da tražim nazad već deponovana sredstva iz bilo kog razloga zbog člana 8.6? Ako dobijem novac nazad, onda moram da vam ga vratim, uključujući i naknade za depozit"
Odgovor Fresh-Casina: "Dario, da, tako je . Registracijom na našoj web stranici slažete se sa svim odredbama i uslovima koji su predstavljeni na našoj web stranici."
Ne radi se o odbrani kazina i sumnji kako se misli na paragraf 8.6. Sada se uglavnom radi o tome kako kazino objašnjava igračima u vezi sa paragrafima 8.6 i konkretno u kojim kontekstima se primjenjuje protiv igrača.
Casino Guru je rekao: "štaviše, ovo pravilo se ne odnosi ni na jednu grešku koju je napravio kazino, kao što ste predložili". Moje pitanje. Kako dolazite do ovog zaključka/spoznaje? Da li Casino Guru uvijek misli da se kazina ponašaju časno? Ovaj odbrambeni stav prema kockarnicama se sve više povećava.
Radujem se mišljenju Casino Gurua.
I file a complaint with the casino and they refer me to paragraph 8.6 in their article. In the context of my complaint, I have read or seen the following:
"Dario, this clause of the rules means that you undertake not to refuse previously made deposits, not to cancel operations for placing funds, not to protest the funds on which you have independently made bets. Otherwise, you undertake to compensate all costs of our side in the collection process for the return of your deposits"
"Please note that the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms and conditions of the site. This is stated in paragraph 8.6. By registering on the website you confirm that you will not withhold or cancel previous transactions and deposits to your account. Otherwise, you undertake to return these funds and compensate the Company for the unplaced funds, including expenses incurred by the Company when collecting your deposits."
My question to Fresh-Casino was: "I have no right to claim back already deposited funds for any reason because of Article 8.6? If I get money back, then I have to refund it to you, including the deposit fees"
The answer of Fresh-Casino: "Dario, yes, that's right. By registering on our website, you agreed to all the terms and conditions that are presented on our website."
It is not a question of defending the casino and suspecting how paragraph 8.6 is meant. It is now mainly about how the casino explains to the players in relation to paragraphs 8.6 and specifically in which contexts applies against the player.
Casino Guru said: "furthermore, this rule does not refer to any mistake made by the casino, as you suggested". My question. How do you come to this conclusion / realization? Does Casino Guru always think that the casinos act honorably? This defensive attitude towards casinos is increasing more and more.
I am looking forward to the opinion of the Casino Guru.
Vidim, nemam šanse da se žalim na bilo koji kazino na Antillephone NV enter, uvijek će biti odbijen.
Ostajem pri svom misljenju:
Odgovor kazina kada sam podnio žalbu na kršenje T&C-a bio je sljedeći: " Imajte na umu da se postupak osporavanja deponovanih sredstava smatra kršenjem odredbi i uslova stranice. To je navedeno u paragrafu 8.6."
Kada sam pitao da li nikada neću moći da vratim svoj novac putem žalbe, kazino je odgovorio da.
Za mene je ovo namjerno lažno predstavljanje, pogrešno navođenje i primjena 8.6. Veoma nepravedno.
I see, I have no chance of making a complaint against any casino at Antillephone N.V. enter, it will always be rejected.
I stand by my opinion:
The casino's response when I filed a T&C breach complaint was this: "Please note that the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms and conditions of the site. This is stated in paragraph 8.6."
When I asked if I could never get my money back through a complaint, the casino said yes.
To me, this is a deliberate misrepresentation, and misstatement and application of 8.6. Highly unfair.
Sada razumem situaciju - nadam se. Pročitao sam vašu žalbu da budem siguran.
Pa ipak mislim da to nije problem nekog nepravednog ponašanja.
Namerno ste igrali - deponovali ste u kazinu znajući da ovaj kazino nije registrovan u Švajcarskoj. Igrali ste i odjednom ste odlučili da tražite da vam se depozit vrati jer ovaj kazino još uvijek nije licenciran u Švicarskoj, jesam li u pravu u ovom trenutku?
Ali nema razloga da vam refundiramo jer kazino nije učinio ništa loše u mojim očima.
Moram se složiti s Nickom: "Sve zavisi od zahtjeva igrača i ako je razumno. Nažalost, u vašem slučaju nemate pravo na povrat novca..."
I understand the situation now - I hope. I read your complaint to be sure.
Well, I still think that this is not a problem of any unfair behavior.
You deliberately played - deposited in the casino knowing that this casino is not registered in Switzerland. You played and suddenly decided to ask for your deposit to be refunded because this casino is still not licensed in Switzerland, am I correct at this point?
But there is no reason to refund you because the casino didn't do anything wrong in my eyes.
I must agree with Nick: " It all depends on the request of the player and if it's reasonable. Unfortunately, at your case you are not eligible for a refund..."
Draga Radka
Hvala vam što ste ponovo pročitali moju žalbu.
Rekli ste: Ali nema razloga da vam vratimo novac jer kazino u mojim očima nije učinio ništa loše.
Po mom mišljenju, to je vrlo opasna izjava. Svi znamo da kazino ne bi trebao nuditi igre u područjima gdje je kockanje zabranjeno. Kazino bi trebao dodati Švicarsku na listu zabranjenih zemalja, kao što su zabranili i druge desetine zemalja iz istih razloga. Zato što je suprotno zakonu da strane kockarnice nude kockanje. Znate da pitanje zakonitosti nije konačno razjašnjeno, da je ovo pravna siva zona i da različite stranke i sudovi različito vide situaciju. Švicarska čvrsto vjeruje da bi kockarnice također trebale dodati Švicarsku na listu zabranjenih zemalja jer je nuđenje stranog kockanja u Švicarskoj zabranjeno referendumom od 1. januara 2019. Samo želim reći da je vaša izjava da kazino nije uradio ništa loše vrlo blagonaklona prema kazino i sud to mogu u nekom trenutku drugačije vidjeti.
I općenito, nisam prekršio T&C u tom pogledu. Uvjeti i odredbe (4.2) glase: Ovim se slažete, potvrđujete i jamčite da vaše korištenje usluga web stranice ne krši nijedan od primjenjivih zakona, statuta i propisa.
Da napomenem nešto: prema švajcarskom zakonu, stranim kockarnicama zabranjeno je da nude kockanje u Švajcarskoj i švajcarcima bez dozvole, ali je legalno da Švajcarci igraju u stranim kockarnicama. To znači da kao igrač nisam prekršio nikakve zakone i T&C.
Moje pitanje u vezi s tim: Gdje tačno u T&C-u piše da sam ja odgovoran za to da li je nuđenje kockanja dozvoljeno u mojoj zemlji ili ne? Ponavljam: korištenje web stranice je apsolutno legalno za Švajcarce, ali ponuda igara od strane kazina nije.
Znam da postoji konsenzus o pravnoj situaciji i odgovornosti za ponudu kockanja u inostranstvu. Ipak, mislim da je važno odvojiti strpljenje i vrijeme da od riječi do riječi pročitate odgovarajuće Uvjete i odredbe kazina u tom pogledu. T&C se razlikuju u ovom pogledu u mnogim kockarnicama i ne može se pretpostaviti da postoji opće pravilo/konsenzus. Uvjeti i odredbe Fresh Casina samo navode da ću saznati da li mi je dozvoljeno da igram na stranici i da li je moje korištenje stranice protivzakonito. Nigdje u Fresh-Casino T&C-u ne dopuštam ili se slažem ili da je moja odgovornost ako sam kazino prekrši bilo koje zakone nudeći kockanje. (U svakom slučaju, pravno je upitno da li osoba može prenijeti odgovornost na drugu osobu ako prva čini nezakonite radnje. Da li su dozvoljeni T&C, u kojima se navodi da sam ja isključivo odgovoran za posljedice koje nosi ako druga osoba opljačka banku?)
Ono što želim reći: Pitanje zakonitosti ovdje sigurno još uvijek nije konačno razjašnjeno, ali to nije bio moj problem , kao što znate.
Moj problem je bio: podnio sam žalbu, a kazino mi je rekao da nemam pravo podnijeti žalbu. Bez obzira na predmet i razlog , jer sam pristao u skladu sa članom 8.6 Kazina. Kazino me je obavijestio:
Napominjemo da se postupak osporavanja deponovanih sredstava smatra kršenjem uslova i odredbi sajta. To je navedeno u paragrafu 8.6 ."
Ovo je opšta izjava i pravilo koje se ne odnosi na sadržaj/razlog/okidač žalbe. Kazino jasno navodi da se postupak osporavanja deponovanih sredstava smatra kršenjem uslova. Kazino posebno ne kaže da nije dozvoljeno podnijeti žalbu na zakonitost zemlje porijekla, ali jasno navodi da se svaki postupak osporavanja deponovanih sredstava smatra kršenjem T&C strane.
Ili kako Casino Guru ocjenjuje ovu izjavu i primjenu paragrafa 8.6 od strane kazina? Ne vidim nikakva ograničenja u pogledu osnova za žalbe. Ali i dalje mislim da ta izjava krši uslove licence. Igrač uvijek treba da ima pravo na postupak za osporavanje deponovanih sredstava. Da li je onda u pravu, drugo je pitanje. Ali reći igračima da bilo kakvo podnošenje i bilo koji proces osporavanja deponovanih sredstava predstavlja kršenje 8.6 jednostavno nije legalno. Ova primjena stava 8.6 je jednostavno pogrešna.
Napominjemo da se postupak osporavanja deponovanih sredstava smatra kršenjem uslova i odredbi sajta. To je navedeno u paragrafu 8.6."
Gdje se u članu 8.6 navode razlozi zbog kojih se žalba može, a što ne može podnijeti? Po mom mišljenju, to nije navedeno u članu 8.6. Zaista vas molim da provjerite ovo tumačenje i primjenu člana 8.6 od strane Kazina.
Hvala ti.
Srdačan pozdrav
Dario
Dear Radka
Thank you for reading my complaint again.
You said: But there is no reason to refund you because the casino didn't do anything wrong in my eyes.
In my view, that is a very dangerous statement. We all know that a casino should not offer games in areas where gambling is prohibited. The casino should add Switzerland to the list of banned countries as well as they have banned other dozens of countries for the same reasons. Because it is against the law for foreign casinos to offer gambling. You know that the question of legality has not been finally clarified, that this is a legal gray area and that different parties and courts see the situation differently. Switzerland firmly believes that casinos should also add Switzerland to the list of banned countries because offering foreign gambling in Switzerland has been banned by referendum since January 1, 2019. I just want to say that your statement that the casino did nothing wrong is very benevolent towards the casino and a court may at some point see it differently.
And in general, I did not violate T&C in this regard. The T&C (4.2) states: You hereby agree, confirm, and guarantee that your use of the Website services does not violate any of the applicable laws, statutes, and regulations.
Let me note something here: According to Swiss law, it is forbidden for foreign casinos to offer gambling in Switzerland and for Swiss without a license, but it is legal for Swiss to play at foreign casinos. This means that as a player I have not violated any laws and T&C.
My question in this regard: Where exactly in the T&C is it written that I am responsible for whether offering gambling is allowed in my country or not? I repeat: the use of the website is absolutely legal for Swiss, but the offer of games by casinos is not.
I know that there is a consensus on the legal situation and responsibility for gambling offers abroad. Still, I think it's important to take the patience and time to read the casino's respective T&Cs word for word in this regard. The T&C differ in this respect in many casinos and it cannot be assumed that there is a general rule/consensus. Fresh Casino's T&C only states that I will find out if I am allowed to play at the site and if my use of the site is against the law. It is nowhere in the Fresh-Casino T&C that I allow or agree or that it is my responsibility if the casino itself breaks any laws by offering gambling. (Anyway, it is legally questionable whether a person can shift responsibility to another person if the former does illegal acts. Are T&C allowed, which state that I am solely responsible for the consequences wear if another person robs a bank?)
What I want to say: The question of legality has certainly not yet been finally clarified here, but that wasn't my problem , as you know.
My problem was: I file a complaint and the casino tells me that I have no right to file a complaint. Regardless of the subject matter and reason , because I have consented according to Casino Article 8.6. The casino informed me:
Please note that the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms and conditions of the site. This is stated in paragraph 8.6 ."
This is a general statement and rule that does not refer to the content / reason / trigger of the complaint. The casino clearly states that the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms. The casino does not specifically say that it is not allowed to file a complaint about the legality of the country of origin, but clearly states that any procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of th T&C of the side.
Or how does Casino Guru evaluate this statement and application of paragraph 8.6 by the casino? I don't see any restrictions regarding grounds for complaints. But I still think that statement violates the license terms. A player should always have the right to procedure for dispute of deposited funds. Whether he is then right is another question. But telling players that any filing and any process of disputing deposited funds is a violation of 8.6 is simply not legal. This application of paragraph 8.6 is simply wrong.
Please note that the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms and conditions of the site. This is stated in paragraph 8.6."
Where does Article 8.6 state the reasons for which a complaint may and may not be filed? In my view, this is not stated in Article 8.6. I really ask you to check this interpretation and application of Article 8.6 by the Casino.
Thank you.
Best regards
Dario
Liebe Radka
Danke, dass du meine Beschwerde nochmals gelesen hast.
You said: But there is no reason to refund you because the casino didn't do anything wrong in my eyes.
Das ist aus meiner Sicht eine sehr gefährliche Aussage. Wir wissen alle, dass ein Casino in Gebieten nicht Spiele anbieten sollte, in denen Glücksspiele verboten sind. Das Casino sollte die Schweiz in die Liste der verbotenen Länder aufnehmen sowie sie andere dutzende Länder aus denselben Gründen auch gesperrt hat. Weil das Anbieten von Glücksspielen durch ausländische Casinos gegen das Gesetz verstösst. Du weisst, dass die Frage nach der Legalität nicht abschliessend geklärt ist, dass dies ein rechtlicher Graubereich ist und verschiedene Parteien und Gerichte die Situation anders sehen. Die Schweiz ist strikt der Meinung, dass Casinos die Schweiz auch auf die Liste der verbotenen Länder hinzufügen sollten, weil das Anbieten von ausländischem Glücksspiel in der Schweiz per Volksentscheid seit dem 1. Januar 2019 verboten ist. Ich möchte nur sagen, dass deine Aussage, dass das Casino nichts falsch gemacht hat, sehr wohlwollend gegenüber dem Casino ist und es kann sein, dass ein Gericht dies irgendwann anders sieht.
And in general, I did not violate T&C in this regard. The T&C (4.2) states: You hereby agree, confirm, and guarantee that your use of the Website services does not violate any of the applicable laws, statutes, and regulations.
Let me note something here: According to Swiss law, it is forbidden for foreign casinos to offer gambling in Switzerland and for Swiss without a license, but it is legal for Swiss to play at foreign casinos. This means that as a player I have not violated any laws and T&C.
My question in this regard: Where exactly in the T&C is it written that I am responsible for whether offering gambling is allowed in my country or not? I repeat: the use of the website is absolutely legal for Swiss, but the offer of games by casinos is not.
I know that there is a consensus on the legal situation and responsibility for gambling offers abroad. Still, I think it's important to take the patience and time to read the casino's respective T&Cs word for word in this regard. The T&C differ in this respect in many casinos and it cannot be assumed that there is a general rule/consensus. Fresh Casino's T&C only states that I will find out if I am allowed to play at the site and if my use of the site is against the law. It is nowhere in the Fresh-Casino T&C that I allow or agree or that it is my responsibility if the casino itself breaks any laws by offering gambling. (Anyway, it is legally questionable whether a person can shift responsibility to another person if the former does illegal acts. Are T&C allowed, which state that I am solely responsible for the consequences wear if another person robs a bank?)
What I want to say: Die Frage nach der Legalität ist hier bestimmt noch nicht abschliessend geklärt, aber das war nicht mein Problem, wie du weisst.
Mein Problem war: Ich reiche eine Beschwerde ein und das Casino antwortet mir, dass ich kein Recht habe eine Beschwerde einzureichen. Unabhängig von der Thematik und vom Grund, weil ich laut Casino Artikel 8.6 zugestimmt habe. Das Casino hat mir mitgeteilt:
Please note that the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms and conditions of the site. This is stated in paragraph 8.6."
Das ist eine allgemeine Aussage und Regel, die nicht Bezug auf den Inhalt / Grund / Auslöser der Beschwerde nimmt. Das Casino sagt klar, dass the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms. Das Casino sagt nicht spezifisch, dass es nicht erlaubt ist, eine Beschwerde wegen der Legalität des Herkunfslandes einzureichen, sondern sagt klar, dass jede procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of th T&C of the side.
Oder wie bewertet Casino Guru diese Aussage und Anwendung des Paragraphen 8.6 durch das Casino? Ich sehe hier keine Einschränkungen betreffend Beschwerdegründe. Aber ich bin immer noch der Meinung, dass diese Äusserung den Lizenzbestimmungen widerspricht. Ein Spieler sollte immer das Recht haben to procedure for dispute of deposited funds. Ob er dann Recht erhält, ist eine andere Frage. Aber den Spielern zu sagen, dass jede Einreichung und jedes Verfahren zur Anfechtung von eingezahlten Geldern ein Verstoss gegen 8.6 ist, ist einfach nicht legal. Diese Anwendung von Paragraph 8.6 ist einfach falsch.
Please note that the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms and conditions of the site. This is stated in paragraph 8.6."
Where does Article 8.6 state the reasons for which a complaint may and may not be filed? In my view, this is not stated in Article 8.6. I really ask you to check this interpretation and application of Article 8.6 by the Casino.
Thank you.
Herzliche Grüsse
Dario
Pišem ponovo i nadam se da ćete konačno razumjeti moj zahtjev i shvatiti ga ozbiljno.
Pažljivo pročitajte snimke ekrana u prilogu.
Jet-Casino je sestrinski kazino Fresh-Casina i oba su licencirana od strane Galaktika NV. Oba kazina imaju istu podršku i potpuno iste T&C. Riječ po riječ. Pitao sam u Jet Casino livechatu šta tačno znači član 8.6. Jet Casino mi je također potvrdio da ni pod kojim okolnostima igrač nema pravo uložiti žalbu i zatražiti povrat novca. (Kazino Guru mi je rekao da to uvijek zavisi od slučaja i situacije).
Samo: Žena u live chatu nije znala da želim da uložim žalbu i zašto.
Ostajem pri svom argumentu: T&C Galaktike NV su obmanjujući i nepravedni. Svaki igrač treba da ima pravo da uloži žalbu nezavisnom telu (ADR) ili davaocu licence. I kazino ne smije unaprijed lagati igrača da to nije dozvoljeno prema članu 8.6. Ovo sprečava igrače da podnose žalbe.
To što član 8.6 znači da igrač ne smije uložiti žalbu ni pod kojim okolnostima je nešto što nisam shvatio prilikom registracije i čitanja Uvjeta i uvjeta. Ovo je namjerna obmana. Oba kazina su mi nezavisno rekla da ne mogu da uložim žalbu iz bilo kog razloga zbog 8.6.
Kao rezultat toga, ostajem pri svojim zahtjevima i tražim da se moj "ugovor" sa Fresh Casino-om poništi zbog nepravilne upotrebe i informacija iz T&C-a i da povratim svoje depozite u cijelosti uključujući kompenzaciju. U suprotnom, preduzeću dalje korake.
Puno hvala na odgovoru
I am writing again and hope that you will finally understand my request and take it seriously.
Please read the screenshots in the attachment carefully.
Jet-Casino is a sister casino of Fresh-Casino and both are licensed by Galaktika N.V. Both casinos have the same support and the exact same T&C. Word by word. I asked in Jet Casino livechat what article 8.6 means exactly. Jet Casino also confirmed to me that under no circumstances does a player have the right to lodge a complaint and request a refund. (Casino Guru told me that it always depends on the case and the situation).
Only: The woman in the live chat didn't know that I wanted to file a complaint and why.
I stand by my argument: The T&C of Galaktika N.V. are misleading and unfair. Every player should have the right to lodge a complaint with an independent body (ADR) or with the licensor. And the player must not be lied to in advance by the casino that this is not allowed under Article 8.6. This prevents players from filing complaints.
That Article 8.6 means that a player may not lodge a complaint under any circumstances was something I didn't realize when registering and reading the T&C. This is deliberate deception. Both casinos have independently told me that it is not possible for me to file a complaint for whatever reason because of 8.6.
As a result, I stand by my claims and request that my "contract" with Fresh Casino be voided due to improper use and information from T&C and reclaim my deposits in full including compensation. Otherwise, I will take further steps.
Many thanks for your response
Draga Radka
Hvala vam što ste ponovo pročitali moju žalbu.
Rekli ste: Ali nema razloga da vam vratimo novac jer kazino u mojim očima nije učinio ništa loše.
Po mom mišljenju, to je vrlo opasna izjava. Svi znamo da kazino ne bi trebao nuditi igre u područjima gdje je kockanje zabranjeno. Kazino bi trebao dodati Švicarsku na listu zabranjenih zemalja, kao što su zabranili i druge desetine zemalja iz istih razloga. Zato što je suprotno zakonu da strane kockarnice nude kockanje. Znate da pitanje zakonitosti nije konačno razjašnjeno, da je ovo pravna siva zona i da različite stranke i sudovi različito vide situaciju. Švicarska čvrsto vjeruje da bi kockarnice također trebale dodati Švicarsku na listu zabranjenih zemalja jer je nuđenje stranog kockanja u Švicarskoj zabranjeno referendumom od 1. januara 2019. Samo želim reći da je vaša izjava da kazino nije uradio ništa loše vrlo blagonaklona prema kazino i sud to mogu u nekom trenutku drugačije vidjeti.
I općenito, nisam prekršio T&C u tom pogledu. Uvjeti i odredbe (4.2) glase: Ovim se slažete, potvrđujete i jamčite da vaše korištenje usluga web stranice ne krši nijedan od primjenjivih zakona, statuta i propisa.
Da napomenem nešto: prema švajcarskom zakonu, stranim kockarnicama zabranjeno je da nude kockanje u Švajcarskoj i švajcarcima bez dozvole, ali je legalno da Švajcarci igraju u stranim kockarnicama. To znači da kao igrač nisam prekršio nikakve zakone i T&C.
Moje pitanje u vezi s tim: Gdje tačno u T&C-u piše da sam ja odgovoran za to da li je nuđenje kockanja dozvoljeno u mojoj zemlji ili ne? Ponavljam: korištenje web stranice je apsolutno legalno za Švajcarce, ali ponuda igara od strane kazina nije.
Znam da postoji konsenzus o pravnoj situaciji i odgovornosti za ponudu kockanja u inostranstvu. Ipak, mislim da je važno odvojiti strpljenje i vrijeme da od riječi do riječi pročitate odgovarajuće Uvjete i odredbe kazina u tom pogledu. T&C se razlikuju u ovom pogledu u mnogim kockarnicama i ne može se pretpostaviti da postoji opće pravilo/konsenzus. Uvjeti i odredbe Fresh Casina samo navode da ću saznati da li mi je dozvoljeno da igram na stranici i da li je moje korištenje stranice protivzakonito. Nigdje u Fresh-Casino T&C-u ne dopuštam ili se slažem ili da je moja odgovornost ako sam kazino prekrši bilo koje zakone nudeći kockanje. (U svakom slučaju, pravno je upitno da li osoba može prenijeti odgovornost na drugu osobu ako prva čini nezakonite radnje. Da li su dozvoljeni T&C, u kojima se navodi da sam ja isključivo odgovoran za posljedice koje nosi ako druga osoba opljačka banku?)
Ono što želim reći: Pitanje zakonitosti ovdje sigurno još uvijek nije konačno razjašnjeno, ali to nije bio moj problem , kao što znate.
Moj problem je bio: podnio sam žalbu, a kazino mi je rekao da nemam pravo podnijeti žalbu. Bez obzira na predmet i razlog , jer sam pristao u skladu sa članom 8.6 Kazina. Kazino me je obavijestio:
Napominjemo da se postupak osporavanja deponovanih sredstava smatra kršenjem uslova i odredbi sajta. To je navedeno u paragrafu 8.6 ."
Ovo je opšta izjava i pravilo koje se ne odnosi na sadržaj/razlog/okidač žalbe. Kazino jasno navodi da se postupak osporavanja deponovanih sredstava smatra kršenjem uslova. Kazino posebno ne kaže da nije dozvoljeno podnijeti žalbu na zakonitost zemlje porijekla, ali jasno navodi da se svaki postupak osporavanja deponovanih sredstava smatra kršenjem T&C strane.
Ili kako Casino Guru ocjenjuje ovu izjavu i primjenu paragrafa 8.6 od strane kazina? Ne vidim nikakva ograničenja u pogledu osnova za žalbe. Ali i dalje mislim da ta izjava krši uslove licence. Igrač uvijek treba da ima pravo na postupak za osporavanje deponovanih sredstava. Da li je onda u pravu, drugo je pitanje. Ali reći igračima da bilo kakvo podnošenje i bilo koji proces osporavanja deponovanih sredstava predstavlja kršenje 8.6 jednostavno nije legalno. Ova primjena stava 8.6 je jednostavno pogrešna.
Napominjemo da se postupak osporavanja deponovanih sredstava smatra kršenjem uslova i odredbi sajta. To je navedeno u paragrafu 8.6."
Gdje se u članu 8.6 navode razlozi zbog kojih se žalba može, a što ne može podnijeti? Po mom mišljenju, to nije navedeno u članu 8.6. Zaista vas molim da provjerite ovo tumačenje i primjenu člana 8.6 od strane Kazina.
Hvala ti.
Srdačan pozdrav
Dario
Dear Radka
Thank you for reading my complaint again.
You said: But there is no reason to refund you because the casino didn't do anything wrong in my eyes.
In my view, that is a very dangerous statement. We all know that a casino should not offer games in areas where gambling is prohibited. The casino should add Switzerland to the list of banned countries as well as they have banned other dozens of countries for the same reasons. Because it is against the law for foreign casinos to offer gambling. You know that the question of legality has not been finally clarified, that this is a legal gray area and that different parties and courts see the situation differently. Switzerland firmly believes that casinos should also add Switzerland to the list of banned countries because offering foreign gambling in Switzerland has been banned by referendum since January 1, 2019. I just want to say that your statement that the casino did nothing wrong is very benevolent towards the casino and a court may at some point see it differently.
And in general, I did not violate T&C in this regard. The T&C (4.2) states: You hereby agree, confirm, and guarantee that your use of the Website services does not violate any of the applicable laws, statutes, and regulations.
Let me note something here: According to Swiss law, it is forbidden for foreign casinos to offer gambling in Switzerland and for Swiss without a license, but it is legal for Swiss to play at foreign casinos. This means that as a player I have not violated any laws and T&C.
My question in this regard: Where exactly in the T&C is it written that I am responsible for whether offering gambling is allowed in my country or not? I repeat: the use of the website is absolutely legal for Swiss, but the offer of games by casinos is not.
I know that there is a consensus on the legal situation and responsibility for gambling offers abroad. Still, I think it's important to take the patience and time to read the casino's respective T&Cs word for word in this regard. The T&C differ in this respect in many casinos and it cannot be assumed that there is a general rule/consensus. Fresh Casino's T&C only states that I will find out if I am allowed to play at the site and if my use of the site is against the law. It is nowhere in the Fresh-Casino T&C that I allow or agree or that it is my responsibility if the casino itself breaks any laws by offering gambling. (Anyway, it is legally questionable whether a person can shift responsibility to another person if the former does illegal acts. Are T&C allowed, which state that I am solely responsible for the consequences wear if another person robs a bank?)
What I want to say: The question of legality has certainly not yet been finally clarified here, but that wasn't my problem , as you know.
My problem was: I file a complaint and the casino tells me that I have no right to file a complaint. Regardless of the subject matter and reason , because I have consented according to Casino Article 8.6. The casino informed me:
Please note that the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms and conditions of the site. This is stated in paragraph 8.6 ."
This is a general statement and rule that does not refer to the content / reason / trigger of the complaint. The casino clearly states that the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms. The casino does not specifically say that it is not allowed to file a complaint about the legality of the country of origin, but clearly states that any procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of th T&C of the side.
Or how does Casino Guru evaluate this statement and application of paragraph 8.6 by the casino? I don't see any restrictions regarding grounds for complaints. But I still think that statement violates the license terms. A player should always have the right to procedure for dispute of deposited funds. Whether he is then right is another question. But telling players that any filing and any process of disputing deposited funds is a violation of 8.6 is simply not legal. This application of paragraph 8.6 is simply wrong.
Please note that the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms and conditions of the site. This is stated in paragraph 8.6."
Where does Article 8.6 state the reasons for which a complaint may and may not be filed? In my view, this is not stated in Article 8.6. I really ask you to check this interpretation and application of Article 8.6 by the Casino.
Thank you.
Best regards
Dario
Liebe Radka
Danke, dass du meine Beschwerde nochmals gelesen hast.
You said: But there is no reason to refund you because the casino didn't do anything wrong in my eyes.
Das ist aus meiner Sicht eine sehr gefährliche Aussage. Wir wissen alle, dass ein Casino in Gebieten nicht Spiele anbieten sollte, in denen Glücksspiele verboten sind. Das Casino sollte die Schweiz in die Liste der verbotenen Länder aufnehmen sowie sie andere dutzende Länder aus denselben Gründen auch gesperrt hat. Weil das Anbieten von Glücksspielen durch ausländische Casinos gegen das Gesetz verstösst. Du weisst, dass die Frage nach der Legalität nicht abschliessend geklärt ist, dass dies ein rechtlicher Graubereich ist und verschiedene Parteien und Gerichte die Situation anders sehen. Die Schweiz ist strikt der Meinung, dass Casinos die Schweiz auch auf die Liste der verbotenen Länder hinzufügen sollten, weil das Anbieten von ausländischem Glücksspiel in der Schweiz per Volksentscheid seit dem 1. Januar 2019 verboten ist. Ich möchte nur sagen, dass deine Aussage, dass das Casino nichts falsch gemacht hat, sehr wohlwollend gegenüber dem Casino ist und es kann sein, dass ein Gericht dies irgendwann anders sieht.
And in general, I did not violate T&C in this regard. The T&C (4.2) states: You hereby agree, confirm, and guarantee that your use of the Website services does not violate any of the applicable laws, statutes, and regulations.
Let me note something here: According to Swiss law, it is forbidden for foreign casinos to offer gambling in Switzerland and for Swiss without a license, but it is legal for Swiss to play at foreign casinos. This means that as a player I have not violated any laws and T&C.
My question in this regard: Where exactly in the T&C is it written that I am responsible for whether offering gambling is allowed in my country or not? I repeat: the use of the website is absolutely legal for Swiss, but the offer of games by casinos is not.
I know that there is a consensus on the legal situation and responsibility for gambling offers abroad. Still, I think it's important to take the patience and time to read the casino's respective T&Cs word for word in this regard. The T&C differ in this respect in many casinos and it cannot be assumed that there is a general rule/consensus. Fresh Casino's T&C only states that I will find out if I am allowed to play at the site and if my use of the site is against the law. It is nowhere in the Fresh-Casino T&C that I allow or agree or that it is my responsibility if the casino itself breaks any laws by offering gambling. (Anyway, it is legally questionable whether a person can shift responsibility to another person if the former does illegal acts. Are T&C allowed, which state that I am solely responsible for the consequences wear if another person robs a bank?)
What I want to say: Die Frage nach der Legalität ist hier bestimmt noch nicht abschliessend geklärt, aber das war nicht mein Problem, wie du weisst.
Mein Problem war: Ich reiche eine Beschwerde ein und das Casino antwortet mir, dass ich kein Recht habe eine Beschwerde einzureichen. Unabhängig von der Thematik und vom Grund, weil ich laut Casino Artikel 8.6 zugestimmt habe. Das Casino hat mir mitgeteilt:
Please note that the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms and conditions of the site. This is stated in paragraph 8.6."
Das ist eine allgemeine Aussage und Regel, die nicht Bezug auf den Inhalt / Grund / Auslöser der Beschwerde nimmt. Das Casino sagt klar, dass the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms. Das Casino sagt nicht spezifisch, dass es nicht erlaubt ist, eine Beschwerde wegen der Legalität des Herkunfslandes einzureichen, sondern sagt klar, dass jede procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of th T&C of the side.
Oder wie bewertet Casino Guru diese Aussage und Anwendung des Paragraphen 8.6 durch das Casino? Ich sehe hier keine Einschränkungen betreffend Beschwerdegründe. Aber ich bin immer noch der Meinung, dass diese Äusserung den Lizenzbestimmungen widerspricht. Ein Spieler sollte immer das Recht haben to procedure for dispute of deposited funds. Ob er dann Recht erhält, ist eine andere Frage. Aber den Spielern zu sagen, dass jede Einreichung und jedes Verfahren zur Anfechtung von eingezahlten Geldern ein Verstoss gegen 8.6 ist, ist einfach nicht legal. Diese Anwendung von Paragraph 8.6 ist einfach falsch.
Please note that the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms and conditions of the site. This is stated in paragraph 8.6."
Where does Article 8.6 state the reasons for which a complaint may and may not be filed? In my view, this is not stated in Article 8.6. I really ask you to check this interpretation and application of Article 8.6 by the Casino.
Thank you.
Herzliche Grüsse
Dario
Dragi Dario,
Skratit ću ovo za oba vaša posta odjednom jer ne namjeravam da se ponavljam više puta nego što je potrebno.
Ono što još sastavljate je zakonitost i pravičnost.
Zakonitost je pitanje za lokalne vlasti i sud, međutim, "ali je legalno da Švajcarci igraju u stranim kockarnicama" takođe znači da čak ni kazino nije prekršio nikakve sopstvene uslove, posebno ako ste odlučili da igrate tamo svojevoljno - to je bio vaš sopstveni izbor .
Kazino nije napravio nikakvu grešku, ako ste zabrinuti, uvijek je birao kazino koji je registriran u Švicarskoj.
Ako igrate i izgubite nemate pravo na povrat novca, to je normalno. Ako igrate i gubite, a zatim pokušavate vratiti novac jer gubite i želite svoj novac nazad, to nije fer prema kasinu.
Vaša situacija je skoro ista, zar ne?
I dalje vjerujem i ti screenshotovi potvrđuju - u mojim očima, da je ovo pravilo upravo za povraćaje sredstava od strane igrača:
Kada igrač zatraži od banke povrat novca, kazino nema šanse da blokira ovu operaciju bez obzira na razlog. Dakle, ovo pravilo služi kao odbrana.
I dalje se slažem sa ovim "da mi je Casino Guru rekao da uvijek zavisi od slučaja i situacije"
Molimo da pitanje zakonitosti riješite sa lokalnim vlastima, mi služimo samo kao posrednik.
Odgovorite ako želite ali vjerujem da nema smisla, zaista mislim da od sada ne možemo smisliti ništa novo.
Dear Dario,
I will get this short for both your posts at once because I do not intend to repeat myself more times than necessary.
What you still put together is legality and fairness.
Legality is a question for local authorities and court nevertheless "but it is legal for Swiss to play at foreign casinos" also means that even the casino did not violate any own terms especially if you chose to play there willingly - it was your own choice.
The casino did not make any mistake, if you are concerned, always chose a casino that is registered in Switzerland.
If you play and lose you are not entitled to any refund, that is normal. If you play and lose and then try to make chargeback because you lose and you want your money back that's not fair toward the casino.
Your situation is almost the same, don't you think?
I still believe and those screenshots confirm - in my eyes, that this rule is exactly for chargebacks made by players:
When a player asks the bank for chargeback, the casino has no chance to block this operation no matter the reason. So this rule serves as a defense.
I still agree with this "that Casino Guru told me that it always depends on the case and the situation"
Please solve the question of legality with local authorities, we serve as a mediator only.
Reply if you wish but I believe there is no point in doing so, I truly think we can't come up with anything fresh from now on.
Veoma mi je žao što vas nerviram svojim objavama. U svakom slučaju, čini se da u kazinu uvijek vidite samo ono dobro i tvrdite da se kazino uvijek ponaša pošteno, transparentno i dobronamjerno kada su u pitanju T&C. Hteo sam samo da upozorim igrače da se paragraf 8.6 primenjuje na netransparentan i nejasan i nejasan način od strane kazina i da ukažem igračima da uvek imate mogućnost da uložite žalbu. Čak i ako se kazino poziva na član 8.6 i kaže da ne možete podnijeti žalbu iz bilo kojeg razloga.
Naravno, članak ima za cilj da osigura da igrač ne povlači (putem banke, kreditne kartice) sa već uplaćenih depozita. Ovo je za zaštitu kazina. Također razumijem da Casino Guru misli da se član 8.6 primjenjuje samo u tom pogledu.
Međutim, pitao sam dvije različite osobe iz Galaktike NV kako treba shvatiti član 8.6. Kada sam ih pitao, obojica su me uvjeravali i potvrdili da član 8.6 kaže da se žalba ne može podnijeti. Jučer sam postavio snimke ekrana gdje sam direktno pitao:
"pa bez obzira zašto ne mogu tražiti povraćaj novca i dobiti ga. Prigovorom itd. Je li to istina?"
Odgovor kazina je bio: "Da, pošto je uplata samo vaša odluka i posljedica vašeg postupka" (...) "U svakom slučaju, ovo je kršenje pravila, Dario"
Ne razumijem zašto Radka citira samo one screenshotove koji idu u prilog kazinu, a potpuno ignoriše druge izjave.
Takođe sam dobio odgovor od davaoca licence Antilephone: Davalac licence se ne slaže sa Casino Guruom. Casino Guru kaže da je član 8.6 namijenjen samo zaštiti od igrača koji povraćaju uplate. Međutim, davatelj licence kaže da članak služi za odbacivanje i sprječavanje nepotrebnih pritužbi, posebno kada je u pitanju ovisnost o kockanju i pravni status.
Ostajem pri svom mišljenju: igrač uvek treba da ima pravo da uloži žalbu, a ne da se poziva na član 8.6 i kaže da nemaš pravo da uložiš žalbu. Također je netačno reći da općenito ne smijete podnijeti pritužbu o određenim pitanjima. Kako je rekao Nick iz Casino Gurua, svaki slučaj je specifičan i individualan. Naravno, mogu podnijeti žalbu, na primjer, ako se neka zemlja nalazi na listi zabranjenih zemalja na web stranici, a ja sam još uvijek mogao igrati. Naravno, mogu podnijeti žalbu zbog ovisnosti o kockanju, na primjer ako su me uvjerili da mi je zabranjen pristup cijeloj kazino grupi, ali mi je i dalje dozvoljeno da igram itd.
Kazino ni pod kojim okolnostima ne smije spriječiti igrače da podnesu žalbu. Nije bitno iz kog razloga. Upotreba 8.6 od strane kazina je krajnje nepravedna. Uvjeti i odredbe treba da budu jasni i da ne dozvoljavaju mnogo prostora za tumačenje i da budu dovoljno smisleni, čak i ako sam pristao na Uvjete prilikom registracije.
Jučer sam pitao sestrinski kazino o članu 8.6. Rekla mi je da mi nije dozvoljeno da podnesem žalbu u kojoj tražim povraćaj mojih depozita. Ali nije znala da želim da se žalim i zašto.
Ne radi se o tome kako Casino Guru tumači član 8.6. Bilo bi dobro kada bi se to odnosilo samo na neovlaštena povraćaja sredstava. Sve je u tome kako kazino koristi članak protiv igrača kada podnesu žalbu. Također se radi o tome kako kazino objašnjava igračima članak.
Kazino može lišiti igrače nade da će unaprijed podnijeti žalbu pozivajući se na član 8.6. Većina igrača zna da uvijek možete podnijeti žalbu, ali ne svi. Kazino ne smije reći da T&C kaže da ne smijete podnijeti žalbu i unaprijed obeshrabriti ljude. Ovo je moj savjet vama.
I'm very sorry to annoy you with my posts. In any case, it seems that you always see only the good in a casino and argue that a casino always acts honestly, transparently and benevolently when it comes to T&C. I just wanted to warn the players here that paragraph 8.6 is being applied in a non-transparent and unclear and vague manner by the casino and to point out to the players that you always have the opportunity to file a complaint. Even if the casino refers to article 8.6 and says that you can't file a complaint about it for whatever reason.
Of course, the article is intended to ensure that the player does not withdraw (via bank, credit card) from deposits that have already been made. This is to protect the casino. I also understand that Casino Guru thinks Article 8.6 only applies in this regard.
However, I have asked two different people from Galaktika NV how Article 8.6 is to be understood. When I asked them, they both assured me and confirmed that Article 8.6 states that no complaints may be lodged. I posted screenshots yesterday where I asked directly:
"so no matter why I can't demand a refund back and get it. By means of a complaint, etc. Is that true?"
The casino's response was: ""Yes, since making deposits is only your decision and the consequence of your action" (...) "In any case, this is a violation of the rules, Dario"
I don't understand why Radka only quotes those screenshots that are in favor of the casino and totally ignores other statements.
I also received an answer from the licensor Antillephone: The licensor disagrees with Casino Guru. Casino Guru says Article 8.6 is only intended to protect against players making chargebacks. However, the licensor says the article serves to dismiss and prevent unnecessary complaints, especially when it comes to gambling addiction and legal status.
I stand by my opinion: a player should always have the right to lodge a complaint and not be referred to Article 8.6 and say that you have no right to lodge a complaint. It is also incorrect to say that you are generally not allowed to file a complaint on certain issues. As Nick from Casino Guru said, every case is specific and individual. Of course I can file a complaint, for example, if a country is on the website's list of banned countries and I was still able to play. Of course I can file a complaint about gambling addiction, for example if I have been assured that I am banned from the entire casino group but was still allowed to play etc.
A casino must not, under any circumstances, prevent players from filing a complaint. It does not matter for what reason. The casino's use of 8.6 is highly unfair. T&C should be clear and not allow much room for interpretation and be meaningful enough, even if I have agreed to the T&C with my registration.
Yesterday I asked the sister casino about Article 8.6. She told me that I was not allowed to file a complaint asking for a refund of my deposits. But she didn't know that I wanted to file a complaint and why.
It is not about how Casino Guru interprets Article 8.6. It would be nice if it only applied to unauthorized chargebacks. It's all about how the article is used by the casino against players when they file a complaint. It is also about how the article is explained by the casino to the players.
The casino may deprive players of the hope of filing a complaint in advance by referring to Article 8.6. Most players know that you can always file a complaint, but not all. The casino is not allowed to say that the T&C says that you are not allowed to file a complaint and discourage people in advance. This is my advice to you.
I'm very sorry to annoy you with my posts. In any case, it seems that you always see only the good in a casino and argue that a casino always acts honestly, transparently and benevolently when it comes to T&C. I just wanted to warn the players here that paragraph 8.6 is being applied in a non-transparent and unclear and vague manner by the casino and to point out to the players that you always have the opportunity to file a complaint. Even if the casino refers to article 8.6 and says that you can't file a complaint about it for whatever reason.
Natürlich soll der Artikel dazu dienen, dass der Spieler keinen Rückzug (via Bank, Kreditkarte) von bereits getätigten Einzahlungen vornimmt. Dies zum Schutz des Casinos. Ich verstehe auch, dass Casino Guru denkt, dass der Artikel 8.6 nur diesbezüglich Gültigkeit findet.
Ich habe aber zwei verschiedene Personen von Galaktika N. V. gefragt, wie Artikel 8.6 zu verstehen ist. Beide haben mir auf Nachfrage versichert und bestätigt, dass Artikel 8.6 besagt, dass man keine Beschwerde einreichen darf. Ich habe gestern Screenshots gepostet, wo ich direkt gefragt habe:
"so no matter why I can't demand a refund back and get it. By means of a complaint, etc. Is that true?"
Die Antwort des Casinos war: ""Yes, since making deposits is only your decision and the consequenze of your action" (...) "In any case, this is a violation of the rules, Dario"
I don't understand why Radka only quotes those screenshots that are in favor of the casino and totally ignores other statements.
I also received an answer from the licensor Antillephone: Der Lizenzgeber ist nicht gleicher Meinung wie Casino Guru. Casino Guru sagt, dass Artikel 8.6 nur davor schützen soll, dass Spieler Rückbuchungen vornehmen. Der Lizenzgeber sagt aber, dass der Artikel dazu dient, unnötige Beschwerde abzuweisen und zu verhindern, vor allem wenn es um Spielsucht und legal status handelt.
Ich bleibe bei meiner Meinung: Ein Spieler sollte immer das Recht haben eine Beschwerde einzureichen und darf nicht auf Artikel 8.6 verwiesen werden und sagen, dass man kein Recht hat eine Beschwerde einzureichen. Es ist auch falsch zu sagen, dass man bei bestimmten Themen generell keine Beschwerde einreichen darf. Wie Nick von Casino Guru gesagt hat, ist jeder Fall spezifisch und individuell. Natürlich darf ich zum Beispiel eine Beschwerde einreichen, wenn ein Land auf der Website auf der Liste der verbotenen Ländern steht und ich dennoch spielen konnte. Natürlich darf ich Beschwerde einreichen wegen Spielsucht, zum Beispiel, wenn mir versichert wurde, dass ich in der ganzen Casinogruppe gesperrt bin, aber dennoch spielen durfte etc.
Ein Casino darf Spieler auf keinen Fall davon abhalten eine Beschwerde einzureichen. Egal aus welchem Grund. Die Anwendung von 8.6 durch das Casino ist höchst unfair. T&C sollten klar sein und keinen grossen Interpretationsspielraum zulassen und aussagekräftig genug sein, auch wenn ich mit meiner Registrierung den T&C zugestimmt habe.
Gestern habe ich im Schwestercasino nach Artikel 8.6 gefragt. Sie hat mir gesagt, dass es mir nicht erlaubt sei eine Beschwerde einzureichen, in der ich eine Rückerstattung meiner Einzahlungen fordere. Sie wusste aber nicht, dass ich Beschwerde einreichen möchte und weshalb.
Es geht nicht darum, wie Casino Guru den Artikel 8.6 interpretiert. Es wäre ja schön, würde er nur bei unerlaubten Rückbuchungen Anwendung finden. Es geht vor allem, wie der Artikel vom Casino gegen Spieler angewendet wird, wenn sie eine Beschwerde einreichen. Es geht auch darum, wie der Artikel vom Casino den Spielern erklärt wird.
The casino may deprive players of the hope of filing a complaint in advance by referring to Article 8.6. Most players know that you can always file a complaint, but not all. The casino is not allowed to say that the T&C says that you are not allowed to file a complaint and discourage people in advance. This is my advice to you.
Dragi Dario,
Ne bih ovo nazvao dosadnim, ali osjećam da je sve već rečeno/napisano.
Suosjećam s vašim osjećajima i drago mi je što ste uložili toliko truda da uradite ono što osjećate da je ispravno.
I mi radimo isto.
Nažalost, ne vidim smisao u stalnoj debati o teorijskim temama i pitanjima.
Vi ste podnijeli žalbu, to je nešto što možemo komentirati. I već jesmo.
Nadalje,
Ako bilo koji igrač naiđe da se ovo pravilo koristi ili bolje rečeno zloupotrebljava u praktičnom smislu, tek nakon toga možemo raspravljati o tome šta se zaista dogodilo i kako je kazino konkretno primijenio ovo pravilo , na osnovu podnesene žalbe koja sadrži argumente obje strane.
Nadam se da razumete.
Dear Dario,
I would not call this annoying, but I feel that all has been already said/written.
I empathize with your feelings and I'm happy that you put so much effort to do what you feel is correct.
We do the same.
Sadly, I can't see any point in constant debate on theoretical subjects and issues.
You submitted the complaint, that is something we can comment on. And we did already.
Furthermore,
If any player comes across this rule being used or better say misused in a practical term, only after that we can debate on what has truly happened and how the casino enforced this rule concretely, based on the submitted complaint containing arguments from both parties.
I hope you understand.
Pozdrav i hvala na ažuriranju! Pratim informacije pravoj ekipi 👍
Što je sa kvalitetom live chata ili korisničke podrške, možete li malo komentirati? 🙂
Hello and thank you for your update! I'm following the information to the proper team 👍
What about the quality of live chat or customer support, can you comment a bit? 🙂
Zdravo. Veoma dobro. Na sva pitanja biće odgovoreno u najkraćem mogućem roku. Osvojio sam 800 eura na svoj prvi depozit sa bonusom u petak, a novac je bio na mom računu u ponedjeljak. Podrška je uvijek bila vrlo ljubazna, iako sam 3x pitao da li isplata zaista dolazi. Ali sve je dobro funkcionisalo. Za mene najbolji kazino u ovom trenutku. Srdacan pozdrav
Hi. Very good. All questions will be answered promptly. I won 800 euros on my first deposit with a bonus on Friday and the money was in my account on Monday. The support was always very friendly, although I asked 3x if the payout was really coming. But everything worked fine. For me the best casino at the moment. Warm greetings
Hallo. Sehr gut. Es werden alle Fragen zeitnah beantwortet. Ich hatte bei der ersten Einzahlung mit Bonus 800 Euro gewonnen am Freitag und Montag war das Geld auf dem Konto. Der Support war immer sehr freundlich, obwohl ich 3x nach gefragt habe ob die Auszahlung wirklich kommt. Aber alles hat bestens funktioniert. Für mich zur Zeit das Beste Casino. Liebe Grüße
Da budem iskren, ne znam kako je kazino mogao tako dobro da radi. Prvi depozit je bio dobar, prošlo je kao pakao
To be honest, I don't know how the casino was able to do so well. 1st deposit was good, it went like hell
Also ganz ehrlich ich weiß nicht wie das Casino so gut abschneiden konnte.1te Einzahlung war gut da lief es wie Sau.Leider zun gierig geworden.Die anderen Einzahlungen waren binnen Minuten runtergespielt trotz kleiner Einsätze.Kaum eine Chance zu Gewinnen.Finger weg
Zdravo,
ono što se dogodilo?
Nesreća u kazinu?
Hello,
what has happened?
Stroke of bad luck in the casino?
Zdravo,
na nesrecu ja nemam veze sa tim.
Ako se igre zamrznu ili je internetska veza prespora uprkos 1000 liniji ili ste izbačeni iz igre bez razloga.
Za mene je to čista podvala.
Kockanje je kockanje, ali kada ste tako očigledno prevareni onda to nema nikakve veze sa kockanjem
Hello,
unlucky me nothing to do with that.
If the games freeze or the internet connection is too slow despite a 1000 line or you get kicked out of the game for no reason.
For me, that's pure rip-off.
Gambling is gambling but when you are so obviously cheated then it has nothing to do with gambling
Hallo,
das hat mich Pech nichts zu tun.
Wenn die Spiele einfrieren oder die Internetverbindung zu langsam ist trotz 1000er Leitung oder man ohne Grund aus dem Spiel geworfen wird.
Für mich ist das pure Abzocke.
Glücksspiel ist Glücksspiel aber wenn man so offensichtlich Betrogen wird dann hat das nichts mehr mit Glücksspiel zu tun
Ako ste povezani, recimo, na svoj wi-fi pomoću računara, onda bi najbolji način testiranja bio da se povežete sa svojim telefonom putem mobilnog interneta i testirate istu igru.
Inače, teško je reći da li je problem na vašoj ili njihovoj strani.
If you're connected let's say to your wi-fi using a computer, then the best way of testing it would be to connect with your phone through the mobile internet and test the same game.
Otherwise, it's hard to say whether the issue is on yours or their side.
Igrao preko mobilnog telefona u WiFi kao i preko mobilnih podataka i preko WiFi na PC-u, isti problem svuda
Have played via mobile phone in the WiFi as well as via mobile data and via the WiFi on the PC, the same problem everywhere
Hab über Handy gespielt im Wlan sowie über Mobile Daten und übers Wlan am Pc überall das selbe Problem
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Casino.guru je nezavistan izvor informacija o online kazinima i online kazino igrama, i nije kontrolisan od strane bilo kojeg operatora igara ili bilo koje druge institucije. Sve naše recenzije i vodiči su kreirani iskreno, u skladu sa najboljim znanjem i rasuđivanjem naših članova iz ekspertskog tima; ipak ovaj sadržaj je napravljen u informativne svrhe i ne bi smeo i trebao da se tumači kao pravni savet. Bitno je da uvek ispunite sve regulatorne zahteve pre nego počnete igrati u određenom kazinu.
Proverite svoj inboks i kliknite na link koji smo Vam poslali:
youremail@gmail.com
Link će isteći za 72 časa.
Proverite svoj "Spam" ili "Promotions" folder ili kliknite na dugme ispod.
Konformacioni e-mail je poslat ponovo.
Proverite svoj inboks i kliknite na link koji smo Vam poslali: youremail@gmail.com
Link će isteći za 72 časa.
Proverite svoj "Spam" ili "Promotions" folder ili kliknite na dugme ispod.
Konformacioni e-mail je poslat ponovo.