What Is The Course OF Action When A Vendor Is 100% At Fault?

SInce I started gambling online, in 2014, things seemed less stressful, more wins and hardly any withdrawal disputes.

But as the industry has evolved, and more and more platforms pop up everyday, the fun and excitement that used to be here, I feel is gone.

SInce 2018, I have hit 4, $10,000+ wins (I know it aint life changing but it does change some things) and I have had to fight for 3 of the 4 withdrawals. 1 was justified, 1 wasnt, and my current one still isnt resolved.

But what does a player do when the vendor goes out of there way to intentionally give false information to both KGC & Ecogra??

What happens then?

The vendor knows this process inside and out. After going through both regulators more than once, I seems to me that the vendor can simply tell their verison of the story, and it is taken as they spell it out, regardless of what proof or documentaion a player might have in the 100% valid claim.

How fair and concise can this process possibly be when as a player, you must provide every little detail to successfully have a chance at getting your fairly won cash.

But as a vendor, you just have to tell them something totally different, as its taken as the word of God. With no possibility of this or any other vendor intentionally 'steering a player in the wrong direction' or givng them confusiing or unclear instructions, so that the vendor can discredit the player, invent some deflective reason that misleads, distracts and eventually gets the house the result they want, and saves them from paying out a single dime.

Vendors all know this process and also count on the normal or next step that a regulator will take.

Let me ask you, if any withdrawal came across your desk that you considered a good stack, as a vendor, and if you knew you even played a small part in a player NOT getting his money, if the variance of a week (give or take) on whether or not a regultor was still investigating or not, would you not mislead one, knowing that their next course of action would be to immediately dimsmiss that players claim as invalid?

To absolve yourself of any wrong doing AND to avoid payment to the player all together? You damn rights you would.

Lets be realistic, without naming ANY of these vendors who grab the lions share of the Canadian market anyway, i have dealt with their SupportCenter many times and they LOVE being the deciding or majority vote in whether or not they allow a player to enjoy their winnings or absolutely just stomp their hopeful dreams and thoughts of paying off their car or whatever and think nothing of it. Im sure they all sit around, have chuckle and go for lunch.

ALL VENDORS are not the poster children for fair, just, unbiased dispute resolution. Regardles of their 'status' here or any other gaming community platform and forum.

But whats that you say.....You have every withdraw request transaction#, recorded chats and organized email notifcations and verification requests all dated and timelogged, proving without a doubt that this vendor acted maliciously, unethically and unprofessionally?

Yes! Yes I do!! 🙂

Well, thats too bad because they told us their side and that good enough for us. Therefore we must dismiss your claim as invalid.

Now tell me, is that a fair, just, and ethical dispute resolution process?? In my opinion, it not even close.

if it was fair ( or closer to more fair i should say), it would be as close to real court as possoible. Or at least the notion that, "Its not what you can say or what you heard, ITS WHAT YOU CAN PROVE!"

PS..Im not entirely sure if this post will get approved, but i hope it does because this is the X discussion that is nowhere to be found. It needs to be because it is getting worse and worse.

"Those who KNOW, don't care....

And those who CARE, don't know...."

By the way, how many of you know the REAL benefits of attaining a 'Diamond Status' level in CR Rewards?

Would you believe me if I told you that just because you get to that level, and sure get a cpl hundred in VIP points but the real awesome things they list in the FAQS section, that less than 2% of all players who get there, actually receive those benefits....And you'll never guess HOW they decide who gets them and who doesnt.......

Hello,

thank you for your summary post. I see that you have already submitted a complaint. Do I understand correctly that this experience is about the Zodiac casino? Also as you said in your complaint:

,,I can proive it and prove Zodiac took actions that are in compliance with the withdrawal request process. I can prove it all but Ecogra nor KGC will re-open my claim..."

What makes you think they lied? Is it true you can prove they lied? If so, kindly provide all relevant proof to Tomas, preferably by complaint.

Hi, yes it is Zodiac and that sentence was actually supposed to say,"......Zodiac took actions that AREN'T in compliance with the withdrawal request process."

And yes of course I can prove it. By KGC's response and then by Ecogra's quick call to label my claim invalid. Less than an hour after they sent me the notice that all documents were submitted and now the case file was complete. Both of their responses to me when they stop or dismiss my claim was 100% based on what Zodiac told them. KGC actually goes into the specifics of what they were told by Zodiac and not a single stitch of it is true. Which I can also prove by dated and timestamped emails, chat support transcripts and a 'Mindmap' infographic I made showing exactly what took place, what was said and what actions were or were not taken. All in chronological order.

But ok, i forward all that to Thomas right away..Thanks. And thank you to the editing team for approving my forum post. I wasnt sure if it was too blatent or bold. But It had to be said....

Hi there.

Now I feel I better understand your point. So, it's more about the authorities acting only in the favor of the casino. The way I see it you question the authorities' approach since it was only the casino who provided shreds of evidence, am I close?

Have you shared all those emails and other transcripts with the authorities as well? Not saying it will change the result, just eager to know whether you have tried.

No problem with approving the post, we value players' experiences and opinions.

Best of luck with the complaint! 🤞

Well not exactly. Its really about ADR and the regulators assigned with the task of sorting these things out. Fairly, without bias or preference, solely based on what the facts are. Look at it this way. I stand to get my $25K or not. I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that I did NOTHING wrong or out of compliance or policies.

In order to even have a chance at getitng this resolved fairly, I had gather up all the evidense (emails, transcripts, screenshots, screen recordings and notifications) then put them together in a nice, organized and concise way to ensure I am able to relay the series of events or actions that took place. By whom, and when they took place. You should see the 'mindmap' i made that shows exactly when certain emails and actions were taken, right down the 7 transaction receipts you get after each withdrawal request. It takes alot of time, and emotional energy that should be spent in a positive and exciting way.

I dont know about you but $25K would help me and my family so much right now and to have it taken away or told for no good reason that you now cant have it and to have any chance of getting it, then now you must fight some more, and wait and wait and wait, without ever knowing the outcome or when youl l get the outcome/decision/results. It's taxing on so many levels for the player, but for the vendor(s), I would bet that not a single one gives any player, any circumstance or any invalid withdrawal claims (that they deem invalid) a second thought and go on with their day without a care in the world.

The process, for what it is, I am happy this service exists. I truly am and thank you guys for providing this service to players who have their rightful winnings/deposits stolen away from them. But the entire process also 100% favours the house. From the get-go, first you must go through the vendors process and allow 2 weeks for them to respond. Then if that goes nowhere, you go to a regulator and submit your claim and IF they deem it valid then you must wait 1 week, sometimes 2 more weeks for the vendor to respond. Then even if they dont respond, youll get another email saying that it may take up 90 days and sometimes efven more than that.

Now, tell me that isnt a ridiculously over-the-top, exorbant amount of time.Why does a vendor need that much time to respond? A reputable vendor has a dedicated team that solely works on payment and payment processing. So why do they need so much time or get the massive allotted time to respond? Meanwhile, the player who I would estimate is at least 1/2 or more of all annual withdrawal requests, is either waiting for their money or had already made arrangments with creditors or overdue account and time is very much of the essense. But for the vendor, the only time that matters to them in any fashion, are the bonus offers expiry dates and times. They could care less if they expedited their response to lessen the wait time for the player.

There are many other points i could go on and on but it is what it is for now. I just feel that vendors are given to much leeway when it comes to Alternate Dispute Resolution and its process.

One regulator however is by far , in my opinion, the more fairly investigated process out there and that's IBAS.

Unfortunately for anyone in the U.S. or Canada, we dont get to use them as a regulator as they only service the U.K. and that region. But IBAS looks at everything, right down to the reasons why or why not, actions were or werent taken and their decisons (depending on the claim) are based on, at times, on whats right. Or who acted maliciously or broke the rules and why. THats the inquiry process i feel I need on this claim because it should of been easily done by now. The proof I submitted is overwhelming in my favour yet here I am, now doubting i will get any of it. And thats sucks.

Zodiac blatently and intentionally told Ecogra that KGC will still investigating because Zodiac admin/riskmangement know that Ecogra's next move is always the same. It results in the players claim being labeled as invalid and thats where it ends. Solely based on what Zodiac only TOLD THEM. WIthout proof , or anything else, just their word ended my claim.

Well, if that all it takes from their end, and my actual emails and actual transcripts tell a totoally different story and i still lost, then how is that fair or equal?

I rest my case...for now. 😉

Fair enough! I was a bit lost earlier, but now, I guess I'm seeing the full picture. Trying to figure out something positive to add at this point, it's not working pretty well. 🙁.

Many players feel certain license providers just pretend to investigate their issues, and it also doesn't matter how strong the arguments seem to be - in the end. The problem is that in such particular cases no other options left. Hiring a good lawyer means another emotional stress. Undertake a hearing does not suit everybody.

I just wish we could reach a fair result.

Um, well not really my point of all that either. And I don't feel license providers 'pretended' to do anything. In fact, I am not blaming the license providers, I am saying that the license recipient/vendor, in this case Zodiac casino, intentionally LIED to the license providers, to yield a pre-concieved and documented result.

Zodiac knew that by telling Ecogra, that Kahnawake Gaming Commission's investigation was still on-going, that Ecogra would follow their policy which is to stop all investigation actions and categorize the players claim as INVALID.

Which is exactly what they did, and they got their way. Now, according to your comment, I am assuming that you are NOT able to bring this to Ecogras attention on my behalf, or speak with someone at Zodiac??

Is what your telling me is that casino's, like Zodiac, whose reputation here is quite good and given a trustworthy status of sorts.

But that with all the evidense I submitted which shows without a doubt, misrepresentation, misleading chat support convo's and deceptive notices of withdrawals being processed, the blatent LIE and actions taken by RiskManagement to deliberately distract attention away from my withdrawal and turn it in to a ResponsibleGaming issue, then outright LYING to not 1 but 2 regulators and A.D.R. platforms, and you tell me, that sometimes proving the facts, doesn't matter because despite what you read and hear about this industry,

that when it comes right down to it, in the end as you say,

the player's who are done wrong by a vendor or someone who works there just happens to be having a bad day or whatever their excuse is, that for the players its basically too bad?

Well that may be the extent of what your role enables you to do, but I alone have made more progress and gotten more information on my own. Has anyone from Casino Guru tried reaching out to the channels I suggested above??

And so if this it, from your stand point, then that even more amplifies my forum post and opinion that there is a huge need for the A.D.R. process and current system to be overhauled and re-worked and policies need to be adjusted and a 100% totally separate entity needs to be formed and given outright authority and governance to protect players who have and prove their case against unjust, unwarranted and unaddressed illicit vendors like Zodiac and Casino Rewards Group.

To allow the this and for me to get absolutely nothing from this makes me sick beyond what words can explain.

And I know there are tons of other players who have been or are currently fighting for their winnings that were taken or not paid out. People put their trust and hard earned money for a chance at hitting a big payday, and then when it happens these P.O.S. vendors just take whatever they want from you and are never held accountable for any of it.

If this case had started in a real world courtroom environment, it would have been over and ruled on after my initial submission over a month ago. The evidense I submitted is overwhelming. What evidense did Zodiac bring to the table?? Nothing. Not a single documented shred of evidense, all they needed was their spoken word, which was enough for both regulators which didnt even give me a chance to respond back.

That is nowhere near FAIR or CONCISE or NON-BIAS! It is the opposite of all those metrics!

But, my last complaint I submitted here, also ended the same way. Only you put me in the laugh at section saying I broke the 3rd party deposit policy and that my dates of submission didnt add up to you guys so you also dismissed my claim.

However, I continued on. WIthout any help from Casino Guru or any other A.D.R. platform. In fact, everyt single one also sided with the vendor. But guess what...despite me breaking the 3rd party deposit policy, I still won and got my winnings in the end. ANd do you know why? It was because I was able to show and prove that the vendor took actions out of order and intentionally to avoid payment just as this vendor has.

SO why does that same process by holding vendors accoutable for their actions not stand true in this case?

Why and how is powerful and factual evidence against any party NOT the proper or right ruling or decsion?

Have the ethics of fair, unbias and equal dispute resolution been re-written or a entirely new meaning been implemented? If so, its news to me and i fear for the future if this is what the foundation of A.D.R. is built upon...

Ill give you an update when i get my money sent to me...... in the very near future.

P.S. Just a side note....is it me or did you not get what my point was for any of the posts or comments i made? Your answers and comments just seem to be nowhere close to the points i made or the intended message within them. Like you were guessing what my exact words really meant or I was intentionally writing in encrypted/encoded hidden messages and meanings.

Then again, maybe it is just me.

And undertaking another hearing I could do all day long. Im not new to online dispute resolution battles at all.

And this isnt over. If Zodiac wont directly pay me my money, in then end, they will pay even more than what they stole from me. In other more condemning and defining ways...You'll see.

Ok, lesson learned.

Either way, it's not my place to make statements, though I appreciate your effort presented with a broad view of the matter. Keep us posted, would be an addition to the forum for sure! 🙌